Faith, Sex, and Theater - Dr. Bruce Chalmer

The real problem in troubled relationships isn't poor communication – it's what couples are actually communicating to each other. Dr. Bruce Chalmer upends conventional wisdom about couples therapy in this eye-opening conversation that challenges everything you thought you knew about relationship struggles.

Drawing from over 30 years as a psychologist and couples therapist, Dr. Chalmer explains why the traditional advice to "communicate better" misses the mark entirely. "The couples are communicating perfectly effectively," he notes with gentle wisdom. "They're just communicating that they don't like or trust each other." This profound insight forms the foundation of his approach to helping couples reconnect and rediscover intimacy.

At the heart of relationship challenges lies the tension between stability and intimacy. While stability requires predictability, intimacy demands vulnerability and risk. Most couples, especially those with established lives together, prioritize stability so heavily that they avoid anything that might "rock the boat" – including honest conversations. Over time, this avoidance creates emotional distance that extinguishes the spark that originally brought them together.

The conversation takes unexpected turns as Dr. Chalmer discusses his journey from statistician to therapist, explains how infidelity affects nearly half his clients, and shares his concept of "sacred sex" as a transcendent connection that reaches beyond the couple to something larger. His compassionate approach acknowledges men's common reluctance toward therapy – not from lack of caring, but from fear of being judged or blamed.

Whether you're struggling in your relationship or simply curious about human connection, Dr. Chalmer's insights offer a refreshing perspective that honors the complexity of intimate partnerships while providing practical wisdom for navigating their challenges. In his words: "Be kind, don't panic, and have faith."

PARENTAL GUIDANCE ALERT: (Some language used in this interview may not be fit for minors or some adults may find objectionable so please advise with my apologies!)

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Chapters

• 0:57 Meeting Dr. Bruce Chalmer
• 3:49 From Statistician to Couples Therapist
• 7:20 Common Relationship Problems
• 12:19 Intimacy vs. Stability in Relationships
• 18:43 It's Not About Communication
• 24:55 Sex, Good Sex, and Sacred Sex
• 32:10 Darrell Davis and Respectful Conversations
• 36:06 Improv and Couples Therapy
• 42:50 Bruce's Musical Background

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:38

Welcome back to one on one with Mr you. Of course, I'm your host, mr you, in studio with us today. Author. Psychologist and couples therapist, dr Bruce, in studio with us today. Author. Psychologist and couples therapist, dr Bruce Chalmers, in the building. How are you, sir?

Speaker 2: 0:50

I am well. Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1: 0:52

It's going to be fun and exciting. We had a fantastic pre-interview chat. We talked about a lot of things that I think our listeners are going to enjoy. So hopefully you have your listening ears on and if you have any questions for myself or Dr Bruce or any comments on the topics that we're talking about, drop into the comment section. We'd love to have your comments live and we have Dr Bruce comment on those as they come through. So, thanks again for listening and watching and, dr Bruce, as we always do it's customary on our show I always ask the first question about you, your background, your childhood, where'd you come from? Where's what's life like for little?

Speaker 2: 1:27

Bruce, yeah, well, I grew up in Buffalo, new York All right so. I'm saying you're a fan. Yes, I was a total Bill's fan, and I was, of course, when I was growing up. That was before the Bills were in the, before the AFL merged with the NFL. So I remember when the B bills actually won a championship, they won the afl championship one year, I think I was about 12 at the time.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Uh, they've tried since then. They haven't quite made it. Um, so I grew up there and uh ended up. Uh went to. Uh ended up going to college at the university of toronto, actually, and graduated from there, ended up moving to verm at the University of Toronto, actually, and graduated from there. I ended up moving to Vermont. So I've been living in Vermont now for 50-plus years and really enjoy living here.

Speaker 1: 2:14

And along the way.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I ended up. I had sort of a checkered career. Academically speaking. I was a statistician for a while. I got a master's degree in statistics. I got involved in that through some of my work I was doing first for the state government in Vermont and then I moved over to the University of Vermont and I was the resident statistician in the computer center for a while. And then I got interested in clinical work, mostly through going through some hard stuff in my own life, which is how a lot of people end up getting into clinical work.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Yeah, and I discovered it was really a powerful thing to do and I really found it felt like a calling. It felt like something I really wanted to do and so I got the training and I've been in private practice now as a psychologist in Vermont for a little over 30 years and if you do the math there I'm in my mid seventies, so you know that was fairly late getting into that. I'm in my mid-70s, so I was fairly late getting into that. I didn't do it like right out of college went right on to graduate school for it. I didn't get the clinical training for a while.

Speaker 1: 3:12

I think I had to be more mature before I felt I could do that and I've been doing that for a long time.

Speaker 2: 3:16

Okay, and somewhere along the way I got more and more into working with couples, as I was was in practice early on. I got training working with couples and families very early in my internships actually, but I also was working with individuals quite a bit, doing a lot of work with people who were recovering from trauma. But I gravitated more and more to working with couples because there was something so I don't know compelling about it. It was really inspiring to be invited. You know people were dealing with really hard stuff and doing it with a lot of courage and you know the outcomes weren't always great, but they were always. I just was inspired by all the folks I was working with that they were just showing such heart in trying to get through the stuff they were getting through, so I found it very rewarding work over the years it would sound like it is.

Speaker 1: 4:09

I mean, it feels as though to me it could just be in my small circle. But it feels like couples therapy is. It's almost made like it's a joke. I mean, I see it the butt of many jokes in cinematic productions and movies and TV shows. It's like when you hear it it kind of takes you to that place and it probably shouldn't. Can you kind of shed a little bit more light on why you think couples therapy is not only valid but important? Because I think people who are watching and listening may say you know what. They may see the same image that I see in these movies about a couple's therapy and they're making a joke about it through the entire movie and it's not taken seriously whatsoever. So kind of help demystify that. If you don't mind doing that for us That'd be great.

Speaker 2: 4:56

Yeah, sure, yeah, you know, I think I know what you're referring to. I see those things too. It's funny If I'm sitting with my wife and we're watching a movie that has a therapist in it. I'm just insufferable. You know, because, because I keep saying I wouldn't say things like that, you know whatever. But you know, I think the difference is the one thing I try to offer people, which you know, I hear stories and any any couple of therapists you go to you're going to get something different and that's valid.

Speaker 2: 5:24

If I think that I can live people's lives better than they can, I'm not helping them. You know. If I think that I should tell them what they're supposed to do and how they're supposed to live their lives and what rules to follow, I'm not really helping them. And when I'm able to work with people without that illusion, when I'm able to work with people with a sense of respect for their own, you know the folks I'm working with overwhelmingly are not crazy and they're not evil and they're not stupid. They're regular people like we all are dealing with really hard stuff. The reason it's hard is that it's hard. It's not because there's something wrong with them, and when I work from that perspective.

Speaker 2: 6:06

It. Can you know it? It what I'm seeking when I'm, when I'm working with people. What I'm seeking is what's meaningful for them, and when you do that, it's not. It doesn't look like those caricatures you see in movies, you know. It doesn't look like somebody just sort of mediating people yelling, yelling at each other or, you know, telling them what to do or things like that. It looks more like people having to face hard stuff without panicking, and a lot of the work is about helping people face the hard stuff without either trying to avoid it, on the one hand, or panicking about it, on the other.

Speaker 1: 6:37

Okay, what would you say? And, of course, confidentiality and privacy are really important here, but what would you say would be one of the hardest situations you've seen in couples therapy Something you can share, even if it's a cautionary tale for those that are listening. They may be thinking about that or may be in need of it and didn't realize they were. Could you share a story or two, or instance or two?

Speaker 2: 6:59

Sure, I mean, I think it's close to half anyway. The couples that I deal with in a first session are talking about infidelity, and infidelity almost always is really hard. Whatever they're dealing with, it's really hard. And so, you know, the person who was cheated on is often just incredibly angry and incredibly hurt and you know, they feel betrayed, they feel like how could this person have done this to me? The person, usually the person who did the cheating, is feeling guilty. They, you know it's pretty unusual that they're saying, oh, it was no big deal. They usually are recognizing yes, I shouldn't have done that, but I did.

Speaker 2: 7:38

And if they're sitting in a therapist's office, it's because they're trying to work on something. The folks who, you know, the folks who don't want to work on anything, don't come to see me. So you know, if people are just saying, well, the heck with it, we're just going to split up, they're not going to see a therapist. So when they're sitting there in a therapist's office, it's because it's. It's such a common.

Speaker 2: 7:55

One kind of betrayal or another especially infidelity but there are other kinds of betrayal too are so common in my experience and I've learned a lot from working, seeing folks get through the shock and work, work their way through to something that feels like resolution, whether that's staying together or splitting up, and so that's why I wrote that book and that's, I guess I would say yeah, the cautionary tale there is well, okay, not a good idea to cheat on your spouse If your deal is monogamy, not a good idea to violate that. And yet people do a lot. So there must be something meaningful about it, there must be something pretty compelling about it, or it wouldn't happen so much.

Speaker 1: 9:26

Okay, it sounds like infidelity is one of the biggest things that you see in some of your sessions. What would be the next big thing that you would see outside of infidelity? What would be the other thing? The big problem that these couples are trying to solve that will come to you and your wife. The big problem that these couples are trying to solve. It will come to you and your wife.

Speaker 2: 9:45

I think I would say the next thing I see after infidelity would be where the spark is gone and it just feels sort of dead and that feels awful, so that one or the other or both parties are just feeling like it's so painful to try and be together when there's so little intimacy whether it's, you know, sex per se or just other kinds of emotional intimacy and they don't know how to get back to where it was or they don't know how to turn that ship around and that's a really painful thing that I see pretty frequently as well.

Speaker 1: 10:16

What do you think I mean without again, without going into any deep details what do you think is the turning point for people or couples who have that particular issue? Because it's very, very intimate, it's very private and you're talking about basically you're not sharing it with the world, but you're sharing it with somebody who is not in the room with you when all these challenges are taking place. What was the turning point for you in your session that made somebody really just trust and open up and say you know what this is, what's going on. We really need help here.

Speaker 2: 10:55

One of the things I do almost always in the first session is I give a little talk about what I think, how often and it's not always true, but how often people get to that point and when they hear that, that often has the effect of kind of opening them up. So I'll give a short version of what I always tell people about. You know, why do we bother coupling up? Why do humans beings do what we do vis-a-vis coupling up? I mean, yes, we're mammals and we reproduce sexually, but there's all kinds of people who couple up who have no interest in actually making babies. So why do we do this?

Speaker 2: 11:30

There's a lot of reasons why, but one way of understanding what makes a couple work is that we're trying to fulfill two different sets of needs. We're trying to have both stability and intimacy, and the reason I separate those two is that the skills you need for stability are very different from the skills you need for intimacy, and yet they're both needs. If they're not fulfilled enough, something just doesn't work. So the way people often get into that sort of deep freeze, the way the spark tends to go out often, is that they are so focused on keeping things stable that they avoid rocking the boat with each other, and which isn't a crazy thing to do.

Speaker 2: 12:14

I mean, stability is important, especially if you do things like have kids. When people have kids, they want to have things be pretty stable. You're making a life together with someone. You want to know that it's going to stay relatively calm. It's not a crazy thing to want at all, but often what happens then is they won't do what it takes to be intimate. Now by intimacy I mean that in a very broad sense. I'm not just talking about sex, I'm talking about being fundamentally honest with yourself and each other.

Speaker 2: 12:41

And when people are prizing stability so much, they will often then avoid bringing up something that they worry will raise anxiety, like just something as simple as a complaint. You know just saying, hey, I wish you wouldn't do X, y or Z that you're doing, or I wish you would do X, y or Z that you're not doing. And if they've had the experience of conversations when they raise anxiety, kind of going off the rails, they get into a big fight, they get into a deep freeze, whatever then they will tend to avoid that and over time that becomes deadly. It starts being that they walk on eggshells around each other, or they can't say anything without it turning into a fight, or they build up resentment and that's what kills the spark. And so, you know, people often say, well, the spark can't last more than a year or so? Right, yes, it can, if you're willing to tolerate the anxiety.

Speaker 2: 13:36

People say that you have to be able to tolerate the anxiety of intimacy. What that requires really is maturity, and you know how do you develop maturity? Best way to develop maturity is you go through a bunch of hard stuff and you get through it. And so that a lot of the couples that are coming to see me, especially the ones, well, yes, the ones dealing with infidelity, but even the ones just dealing with that sense of kind of a you know, a dead, a dead relationship it's all about learning to tolerate the anxiety of actual intimacy. And that you know.

Speaker 2: 14:06

You're asking, like, what's the turning point? Often you'll kind of see the light bulb. You know, when I'm explaining the bit about stability and intimacy, they will often say, wow, hadn't thought of it that way. That's just what we've been doing, we've been all about stability and we've been avoiding intimacy. And when they do that it's, on the one hand, it's a little scary because they, you know there's stuff that they haven't wanted to go to. That may be difficult. There's usually good reason why they're avoiding talking about certain things that may be really scary. Maybe they discover they're just not compatible.

Speaker 2: 14:39

You know which is really a scary thing to discover that's pretty scary, yeah, but of course maybe they discover that they can broaden their sense of you know they can, they can risk it, and then they can rediscover each other, and that can be very exciting.

Speaker 1: 14:56

I love that. I don't know if I'm qualified to speak on this. Next year will be our 30th year of marriage.

Speaker 2: 15:04

That makes you qualified.

Speaker 1: 15:07

We had ups and downs that you wouldn't believe. There's some things that are in our book. There's some things that are on the first few seasons of our podcast. Beside that, a lot of it is largely unknown. But, man, the work, the intentional work that had to take place, I think it's understated around us. I don't think we realize that we have met with people. We have met and counseled couples ourselves, Not that we're couples therapists, but we seem to fall into that boat where we were able to kind of help, maybe on a small scale, maybe not anything clinical or really really deep or anything, but we just were able to help with that under the umbrella of ministry for a long time.

Speaker 1: 15:49

And I feel like a lot of people are not willing to to kind of take that step together. There's always one that wants to do it, the other one that doesn't want to do it and the one that wants you to do it. They say they want to do it because they think the other person can get fixed by doing it, Not them. They strike, so it can go both ways. But a lot of times it's usually the wife that wants her husband to go because he needs help. She's tired of watching him. She's fine, but he needs help. But tell me how you would speak to the guy that's reluctant to go on a couples therapy. If you had a conversation with him, how would you not convince him? But maybe ask the right questions to get the right answers? Why would he want to come under that same scenario? The wife is harassing him about it and he's like I don't need this talking to a stranger about my life. The problem not there, you know. How would you, how would you handle that one?

Speaker 2: 16:44

well, I'll tell you, I'm gonna answer that question. And I'm gonna answer a different one. First, because you're saying what would I say to the guy who's reluctant to come? Well, the guy is reluctant to come. I'm not talking too much because he's reluctant to come. So the person I talked to and I actually made a video about this a few years ago the person I talked to is how do I talk to the woman who's trying to get the guy to come? Because you know, what could she do, perhaps differently? That would invite him to come, that would invite him to want to come. And I'll tell you what I. So, what I tell those women, you know.

Speaker 2: 17:19

First of all, they need to understand why is the guy reluctant. Now, if you ask women why is the guy reluctant, they will say mostly the stuff that the guy's telling them. Often it's like the guy thinks well, you're the one with the problem, so you go. You know you're the one who's unhappy, you're trying to drag me to therapy. You're the one who's unhappy, you go. That's. The guy will often say that. The woman will often Yep, of course, yeah, the woman will often end up saying he just doesn't care enough. He doesn't care enough to go. You know, it's like if he cared enough about me he would be willing to go and I? No, that's not true. It's not that the guy doesn't care. It's almost never that the guy doesn't care. It's usually that the guy is terrified. Now, we're guys, we won't admit that we're terrified, but usually it's that the guy's afraid. And what I point out to the women is he's got good reason to be afraid. He's not crazy to be afraid. What is he afraid of? He's afraid that the therapist will side with the woman. It doesn't matter whether the therapist is male or female. He's got good reason to think that because that often happens yeah, I mean very often. You know it shouldn't, but very often that's what happens the guy ends up feeling like oh, this is gang up on the stupid guy, you know. And so he has reason to worry that. He's worried that the therapist will basically either say or imply why are you with this guy, he's terrible for you, get out of it. Or even if he doesn't say that explicitly, even if the therapist doesn't say that explicitly, the guy's worried that the therapist is going to lead them, lead her to come to that conclusion. In other words, you know, and that's not a crazy fear.

Speaker 2: 19:00

Everybody, or most people, I think. If you know about couples therapy, you probably know some friends who went to it and broke up. It's not an unusual phenomenon, it's. You know, a lot of people will see couples therapy as uh-oh. This relationship's on its last legs, and often it is.

Speaker 2: 19:17

So his reluctance isn't crazy. And so when the woman can actually recognize, he's not crazy to be afraid of it. And, moreover, it's not that he doesn't care. In fact, the only reason he's afraid of it is that he doesn't want to lose her. He actually does care when she can see that. If she can actually validate that when she's talking to him, and she can actually say you know, I think I can understand why you're reluctant. It makes sense to me I would worry about that stuff too.

Speaker 2: 19:48

That's often what will get the guy to open up. That's often what will get the guy to say well, I really don't want to lose you. Maybe it's worth a try. But you know, I'm glad you understand why I'm afraid, and that's what can get the guy to open up. And then, if they go to therapy and they actually experience a therapist who really clearly respects them both which I certainly try to do. That's what lets things happen, where the guy will not be afraid anymore and then you'll actually get some, you know, get some. Actual progress can happen, because they can actually face their issues.

Speaker 1: 20:23

So many questions I want to get into with you man. There's so much. Hopefully we have time to get into at least the majority of this. So many. But your book is Couples Therapy in Seven Words. You can get it on his website ctin7.com. I'm sure it should be available elsewhere as well. You mentioned one thing in your book.

Speaker 2: 20:43

That's the podcast. Couples Therapy in Seven Words is the podcast, the podcast right, say again, the link to the book is there.

Speaker 1: 20:53

Oh yeah, the link to the book is definitely there.

Speaker 2: 20:55

I've written three books and you can find links to there and also at my own website, brucechommercom.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Absolutely. I want to get into some other stuff. Hopefully we won't run out of time in doing so, but you mentioned one thing in your book about how the relationship problem that you've been seeing are almost always not about communication. Yes, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 21:22

That's the second book I wrote. It's called it's not about communication. Why? Everything you know about couples therapy is wrong. Is that a snarky title or what? Right, that is an arrogant title. I will, I will own that. You know. What am I trying to say there? The reason I say it's not about communication. Now look, I realize it's a. It's a substantial. I don't know what the percentage is, but it's the big majority of couples in the first session when I'm saying, hey, what's going on?

Speaker 2: 21:39

In effect, they will say we need to communicate better. You know, we need some rules or tools to communicate better, because every time we try to communicate about anything that we have any differences, it goes off the rails. So we need some rules Help us communicate, help us learn to communicate better. No-transcript effectively communicating and they're destructive. They're, you know, they're conveying to their partner. I don't trust you. I'm not even sure I love you anymore. You just make me angry. They're very effective at communicating.

Speaker 2: 22:42

It's not about communication, it's about what they're communicating. So if I taught them and many therapists will do this if I taught them rules to communicate better, all I would be doing is giving them a bunch of cumbersome rules to communicate how much they don't like each other. It wouldn't do them any good. What they need to figure out is maybe how come they don't like each other and maybe they can like each other again and then they don't need the rules. And that's the thing you know and I love to give it. It's probably a silly analogy, but you know, if you think teaching people, I'll put it this way If you look at a couple, the sort of couple that doesn't make appointments to see me because everything's going well right, some think of maybe your own marriage. It's you know, I feel this way about my marriage.

Speaker 1: 23:24

When things are going well in a good way.

Speaker 2: 23:28

No, I'm saying a good thing when things are going well, a couple that is doing well. And you know, when people see our podcast I do, the podcast I do is with my wife. She's not a therapist, she's a retired educator, but we've what people comment. A lot is our chemistry. It's like well, you guys look like you really do like each other. Well, we do.

Speaker 2: 23:47

And when, when you see a couple that is doing well, they are more or less following the rules that everybody teaches. They're not doing it formally, you know. They're not doing it carefully and like active listening and making sure you know. But informally they're not insulting each other, they're not calling each other names, they're actually listening to each other and trying to understand what the other is saying. That's what couples do when they're doing well. So a lot of therapists will say well, if that's what couples do when they're doing well, let's teach couples to communicate that way and then they'll be doing well.

Speaker 2: 24:20

And that turns out to be wrong. That turns out to be a fallacy. Trying to teach people to behave like well-functioning couples doesn't make them well-functioning. It's the same thing. Here's my silly analogy. If you think about tennis players the top tennis players when they hit the ball, you notice how they grunt. They didn't used to do that when I was a kid, but for the last 40 or 50 years they grunt when they really hit the ball. Have you seen that? Yeah, I've heard it. So if you're teaching tennis, I guess that means just make sure everybody grunts and then they'll be top tennis players. Well, that's ridiculous. The grunting doesn't make them top tennis players. There's probably something associated with being a top tennis player that makes them grunt, but teaching them to grunt won't teach them anything you got to teach them to be a good tennis player.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Teaching a couple Say what, say what.

Speaker 1: 25:13

I don't know how you're going to grow up beyond that, but okay, keep going. I don't know how you're going to grow up beyond that.

Speaker 2: 25:17

But okay, yeah, so that's the point. You know, teaching people to act as if they're well-functioning doesn't make them well-functioning. They actually have to be well-functioning, and that's not about learning to communicate better. That's about what's going on that's making them so pissed off. And if you can actually go there, then you have a shot actually of people relaxing and being able to hear each other and being able to recognize wow, there are multiple realities. You know the phenomenon. You asked about turning points. It's another one of my favorite things to note.

Speaker 2: 25:50

In a turning point and I hope it's okay to use this language I call it the oh shit moment. Is it okay to say that? Not now. How about the oh shoot moment? Let's call it the oh shit moment. Is it okay to say that? Not now? How about the oh shoot moment? Let's call it the oh shoot moment. Go ahead, sir.

Speaker 2: 26:03

So the point is it's not the oh shoot, we'll say it that way. It's not the oh shoot when you hit your thumb with a hammer, it's the oh shoot when it's like oh shoot, that's what's going on here. Oh, you're not crazy, but neither am I. But we really do differ here, don't we? You know that's a turning point moment. You get there, when you get past the instant panic, when you know when people aren't defensive, at that point they're just hearing it. And the reason I call it the oh shoot moment rather than calling it the aha moment, you know, aha is lovely, aha is like aha, we've solved it. Well, the oh shoot moment doesn't solve it yet, but it means that they can stop fighting. At that point they can say, oh, that's what our problem is. I didn't realize you were thinking of it that way. I'm not sure I'm okay with that, but at least I'm understanding where you're coming from. You know that's the oh shoot moment, as I like to call it using the other word, and that, but that that moment is that is a real turning point and I'm dramatizing it by calling it a moment.

Speaker 2: 27:03

You know it's really more of a process, but when a couple can get there, you can almost see the light bulb. You know when a couple gets there, then they're. They have a shot actually at being able to hear each other and actually maybe reconnect. You know that's. It's amazing what happens when they can do that, because a lot of times what will happen is the things they thought were so crucial They'll recognize maybe they're not as crucial as they thought.

Speaker 2: 27:28

Maybe it's like, oh, I actually can be okay with some stuff I didn't realize could be okay with. Or, you know, also sadly sometimes it happens it's like, oh, wow, we are two good people, but I see why we're not right for each other. It's just not going to work. That's really a bummer and that's sad when it happens. But even that is a kind of success because it means that they can both move on with a sense of, you know, integrity. They don't have to feel like, oh, it was all a waste of time. They can recognize wow, we had great times that we had. We can move on now and realize, well, we shouldn't stay together. So it's painful when that happens, but either way, there's a clarity that they can get from that.

Speaker 2: 28:13

So that my whole bit about it's not about communication is really it's about that sense that no, it's not how you're communicating, it's what you're communicating. I do want to add one other thing, which is about that snarky subtitle of the book. Yeah, why? Everything you know about the couples therapy is wrong. That applies to me too. Everything I know about couples therapy is wrong too. Which is to say, I do have some good ideas, lots of people have good ideas. If I think, I know, if I think I have the last word, I'm going to cause harm rather than good, I really have to be humble about my own understandings. I have some good ideas. They work a lot, but they don't always work, and I need to understand that. So that's what I mean by that. Oh, I love it.

Speaker 1: 28:51

All right. Now, based on the title of this episode, there are three areas that I really want to try to get into, but we're going to have to do a rapid fire. I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to kind of hear some of the stories. One awesome story that you shared in our pre-and-agree chat that I definitely want to be shared here. So I'm going to ask you maybe three or four more questions to see if we can move through them relatively quickly and give the audience more of a broader understanding of what you do, what you're involved in. I think it's very, very, very interesting. But one question here sex, good sex and sacred sex what are the differences?

Speaker 2: 29:28

there. So sex is whatever you think. It is Plain old sex. You know, if you think it's sex, it's sex and you know it's not just intercourse, it's whatever it is. You know Sex sex it's sex, it's not just intercourse, it's whatever it is. Sex is a lot of things, If you think it's sex.

Speaker 1: 29:43

It's sex. I don't have to quibble about that. I was watching a podcast yesterday that under the age of 18, that first talk to your mom about that.

Speaker 2: 29:51

He just, he's like keep going, kids, talk to your parents, right, absolutely, oh my God. So Right, absolutely. So what makes it good sex is what I say. What makes it good sex is when you move from just plain old sex to being present, emotionally, spiritually, physically present with yourself and each other, which is to say intimate. That's what I mean by intimate. That's what makes it good.

Speaker 2: 30:11

Sacred sex is sort of like a cumulative. It's like learning math. You know you have to learn it cumulatively. You know you gotta. You gotta be, you gotta be okay with plain old sex before you can get to good sex, and you gotta be good with you, gotta be adept in good sex before you get to sacred sex. Sacred sex is when it's it's no longer about just the two of you anymore. It's such a you're so attuned that you're in tuned with forces that are much bigger. You know, in religious terms it's like it's holy. In religious terms it's God is involved. Or in cultures that wouldn't use in those terms like tantric sex that the folks from often, like India and from the East will talk about. That's the notion of sacred sex. So it has a lot more to do with your sense of the sacred than it does about sex per se. So that's what I mean by that.

Speaker 1: 31:01

Yeah, lot more to do with your sense of the sacred than it does about sex per se. So that's what I mean by that. Yeah, thank you, very good, very good, all right, so there's a few more things. I want to try to get them in. We are, we're up against it right now, really. Um, you shared a story about a gentleman by the name of Darrell Davis. Are you going to share that story again, can you?

Speaker 2: 31:16

can you get into that? I don't know him personally. I'm just amazed by what he has done. He is a black man who decided it would be a good idea to go visit KKK rallies to talk to the guys. What amazing courage to do that. And he didn't go. Of course he didn't go to all of them.

Speaker 2: 31:36

Yeah, I mean I, you know, I'll bet you can relate, you know, I mean I'm not black, I'm Jewish, and we're not exactly welcome at KKK rallies either, and I don't know if I could pull that off. But he has done that and he now has a collection I think of I don't think it's literally 200 robes that people sign up, but it's a whole bunch of robes and over 200 people have renounced white supremacy from having had conversations with Daryl Davis. Unbelievable thing to do, and I find such inspiration in that, and to me that applies in couples therapy too. It's so much about getting past.

Speaker 2: 32:13

Whatever these huge differences seem to be, they just seem to be set in concrete, and when people can experience genuine respect, it just tends to soften everything up. And so these KKK guys who were able to actually have a conversation with a black man who was treating them with respect again, incredible courage to do that and actually they recognized that, wow, the stuff they had thought was true wasn't true. They were able to actually say, oh, all of these assumptions I've been making about, you know, racism turn out not to be true. And they were able to see that because they experienced somebody being deeply respectful of them, which I just think is an amazing thing. So that you know that applies in the world of therapy I think everybody as much as it does. More broadly, and you know, be it race relations or politics or whatever, daryl Davis is a co-founder of an organization called the pro-human foundation and I want to put a shout out he's also involved with braver angels, which is another organization I want to give a shout out to.

Speaker 1: 33:13

Absolutely. I think that this, that story, was deep to me on a lot of different levels. I just kind of feel like as a man, I've been dealing with a lot more men's issues, especially on our show and doing more ground tables with men and chat discussions, and that isolation piece is just one of the biggest things that men have a challenge with and also inability or unwillingness to connect. But when we do that, when we really not be in a room, we with a whole bunch of other men, that's not what I mean, that's not really a connection. But when we actually really are intentional about connecting and getting to know and hear these stories from other people and hit and peeking into their lives, we realized how big we made our own stuff and it wasn't that big a thing. We made it into a massive mountain that keeps us from all the other men and keeps us from compassion and connections. Like you know what? It wasn't that big a deal. Look at what a deal. Look at what he's dealing with. Look what he's dealing with. It's worse than mine. I wouldn't make it if I had to do what they deal with and it just kind of demystifies everything. So I love that story of Darrell Davis man, you mentioned some things about your area in Vermont.

Speaker 1: 34:18

I want to just the next to last question I ask you so we can get out of here. You mentioned about your area in Vermont and how this is a very strong Jewish community where you are and there was some discussion between you and I about Israel and anti-Semitism. I noticed a big topic that crunched into a few minutes and I recognize that. So I apologize in advance to everybody that's listening. Dr Bruce, I'm going to give you more insight. You contact him and kind of have discussions with him. You can get into more details about what we're talking about right now. But in short, talk to me about Vermont, the community that you are a part of, what you're seeing in the interfaith examples, and just kind of break that down for us a little bit, if you don't mind getting into it please.

Speaker 2: 35:02

Sure, yeah, well, it's interesting in Vermont because it's a very small Jewish community. So, you know, one of the effects of that is I suppose it wouldn't be surprising, you know, since I'm very much involved. You know, I'm kind of well known in the Jewish community and in various circles. So what that ends up meaning is the clients I work with are almost never Jewish because I probably know them or know people who know them or what. You know what I mean. It's like I can't work with folks that are my own friends or acquaintances even so. That's just interesting. But I probably work with a smaller percentage of fellow Jews than I would if I were in a big city where there would be all zillions of people that I don't know around here. It's like if they're Jewish, I probably have some connection with them. You know, because it's a very small Jewish community. Have some connection with them. You know, because it's a very small Jewish community.

Speaker 2: 35:46

The anti-Semitism stuff is. I mean, ask any Jewish person and you will probably find, wow, it's been really, it's always been a thing. It's not like that's new. In fact, it's been around for millennia. You know, in one way or another, especially in the last several hundred years, it's been around and it keeps cropping up one way or another, and the most recent stuff in the last several hundred years it's been around and it keeps cropping up one way or another, and the most recent stuff in the past couple of years has been incredibly painful. It's been painful sort of right across. Whatever people's political views are, whatever their views are about how Israel has been handling itself, right across the spectrum, it's still been really painful, and so that's something that you know lots of.

Speaker 2: 36:26

When Jews get together, we talk about it, which, again, not real surprising. I think that's true of any group. Look, I imagine you know, when black people get together, you talk about racism in ways that white people don't talk about. When Jews get together, we talk about anti-Semitism in ways that non-Jews don't talk about. I think that's pretty normal stuff.

Speaker 1: 36:47

I suppose. So I guess that does happen.

Speaker 2: 36:51

I don't know. I've never been in a group you know?

Speaker 1: 36:54

No, that makes sense. That makes sense In the area where you are in Vermont. Is that a big challenge that you're seeing? I mean, this is a small community so you know of course any news, good or bad, gets around pretty quick. Probably Is that a problem you guys are seeing that precipitates that you guys have these discussions, or are you kind of pulling it from media cues and what's going on in the world or globally, or are you seeing it in your neck of the woods directly.

Speaker 2: 37:20

We are actually seeing it in our neck of the woods. Again, it varies a lot depending on where you are. But in Vermont it varies a lot depending on where you are. But in Vermont, it's funny, it's not so much the anti-Semitism of the right, the Nazi type, it's more the anti-Semitism of the left, depending on how you analyze that. But kids in school are really subject to a lot of painful stuff, especially since the events of October 7th a couple of years ago. That has been really hard for folks. I know we actually see it in Vermont and so it's. Vermont is an interesting place because there's a real tradition here of tolerance and I say tolerance because it's interesting. It's more tolerance than it is acceptance, but it's definitely tolerance. There is a real tradition here of saying well, you get to be who you are here, but antisemitism has come up in various forms locally and that it is the topic of conversation a fair amount even here.

Speaker 1: 38:18

Okay, we got two more questions left. We're going to try to make this happen this week.

Speaker 2: 38:22

We're up against it seriously.

Speaker 1: 38:25

First question you mentioned improv three in our conversation. I think it's hilarious only because we have some deep conversations about forgiveness and betrayal and couples, therapy and faith and interfaith, as you just mentioned, and now we're talking about where did three come from? Tell me briefly how is it a love for three-Eta? Is it an analogy you use in your work? Where did 3-Eta come from in all of this?

Speaker 2: 38:52

It's totally an analogy that I use in my work because I've done very little of it. I'm not trained in that or anything. You've probably seen improv right and it can be absolutely hilarious when it happens. The analogy in my work is my first session is pretty structured, my first session. I have particular things. I mentioned some of it earlier. I talk about stability and intimacy and I do a family diagram and I you know it's pretty structured. After that, or even after like the first half of the first session, it then becomes something that I think is very akin to improv theater.

Speaker 2: 39:25

And why do I think it's akin to improv theater? There's one rule, as I understand it, there's one rule of improv theater. The rule is yes and yes. And In other words, somebody presents you with some ridiculous thing and your fellow actor has just come up with some ridiculous idea and throws it into the mix and you never say no. You never say no, we're not going there, we're going here. It's always yes. And and then you throw in something maybe even more ridiculous. Now, how is that like couples therapy? Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to make fun of folks. It's not that we're throwing in ridiculous things. It's that in the beginning of couples therapy. It's not that we're throwing in ridiculous things, it's that in the beginning of couples therapy it's up to the therapist to be the one who can do the yes, and Because the couple is usually in no shape to do that, the couple is in no damn it mode.

Speaker 2: 40:15

They're not in yes, and mode, right, they're just there Whatever the other person is saying. They're feeling like you're not understanding and they're in negative mode. But to the extent that what the couple therapist is doing is saying, wow, that's interesting, even if it's awful, you know it's like wow, you cheated, that's interesting. You know I don't usually say well, that's interesting, but I don't say oh, my God, that's terrible. You know you shouldn't have done that. Well, they already know that it's like well, like improv theater, and then subsequent sessions. Again, there's not a lot of structure except follow the meaning where it goes, which again is my understanding is just like improv. So that I have a section, a chapter, in one of my books. In that book it's not about communication. I have a chapter in there that sort of looks at how I do therapy and that's why I compare it to improv theater.

Speaker 1: 41:07

I love it. I love it All right, as customary, all of our guests ask answers. The last question I ask all of our guests. So this is not just me picking on you. I do this with everybody. I'm picking everything that you do off of the table. And the whole point of this question just to preface it for you is that it allows us to kind of go back in the childhood a little bit and think about the dreams and the goals that we had and put on the shelf stuck in a bureau drawer and left them in there for years. I'm definitely a chief offender in that regard, but I'm taking author off of the table. I'm taking couples therapists off of the table. I'm taking psychologists off of the table.

Speaker 2: 41:46

What would Bruce be doing if you weren't doing any of those three things? Wow, you know I'd like to be thinking I'd probably be a professional musician. I would have gotten what instruments? Oh, I play a bunch of instruments the only one I'm. I mean, I play guitar, I play piano, I play recorders. I play. I was in an early music group for decades. I've played a bunch of early instruments, you know, crumhorn and things like that, and I was never, never at a professional level of any of them, except probably recorders, where I'm at the most professional level and you know I've been. I'm on some recordings, playing, recorder and and sing. And I also sing, again, not at a. I'm not a soloist type singer, but I do a lot of choral singing and I compose a lot. So I would probably be doing that. There was a point in my career where I had a chance to go get a master's degree in early music and I declined because I didn't want to do it for a living, and I don't know if I have the chops for it.

Speaker 2: 42:40

Really, you know, I just don't know if I you know, but who knows? But if we're going to make an alternative universe, that's probably what I'd be doing.

Speaker 1: 42:47

Oh boy, here we go. But that was fantastic, man. Thank you, Dr Bruce, for being on with us. Man, BruceChomacom is where you can find, I would think, all of your work there. The link we gave you earlier was for the podcast website Couples Therapy in Seven Words C-T-I-N number 7 dot com.

Speaker 1: 43:07

I'm sure there were many questions left on the table. I know I had plenty of them, but Dr Bruce is open to talk about faith, interfaith, the plight of the Jewish community, his love for Thuridic. I know it's a little deeper than what he told us about musical competitions. I know we only scratched the surface of that. Of course, anything regarding couples therapy and perhaps having an appointment, deeper than what he told us, I mean talk about musical competitions. I know we we only scratched the surface of that. Of course, anything regarding couples therapy and perhaps having an appointment made with him and his wife is something to do a fantastic job of what they're doing and his books. But he has like three books out there betrayal and forgiveness. It's not about communication and we ignite it in the spark. So by all means, reach out to him, Bruce. By all means reach out to him, Bruce, traumacom. Third, thanks for being on with us. This was a very enlightening conversation, man you are. You got a lot of layers, man. This was a great thanks, well, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1: 43:55

The pleasure is all mine, of course. If you have any further questions, I think we'll ask Dr Bruce to jump on to our YouTube channel and in the comments section under this episode, which is live, so you can be able to find it right away, he'll drop all of his information there and that'll give him a chance to connect with you guys directly and they can send their questions and comments or ask where they can find any particular word they're trying to find or any questions they have about therapy, etc. So thanks again for doing this, man. This has been fantastic. Any closing thoughts for us man?

Speaker 2: 44:25

Just, you know the seven words of our podcast be kind, don't panic and have faith. That's my closing words. I love it, I love it.

Speaker 1: 44:32

Thank you very much, all you guys listening and watching. Thank you for supporting one on one with Mr you and, of course, dr Bruce Chalmer. Pleasure to have you, sir. Fantastic Dr Bruce, and Mr Dr Bruce and Mr Yu, we're out.